same here, no audio... ________________________________ From: dg-idot-bounces@kantarainitiative.org on behalf of Salvatore D'Agostino Sent: Tuesday, 19 November 2013 7:10 PM To: Ingo.Friese@telekom.de; dg-idot@kantarainitiative.org Subject: Re: [DG-IDoT] IDoT telecon 2013-11-19 On line From: dg-idot-bounces@kantarainitiative.org [mailto:dg-idot-bounces@kantarainitiative.org] On Behalf Of Ingo.Friese@telekom.de Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2013 9:36 AM To: dg-idot@kantarainitiative.org Subject: Re: [DG-IDoT] IDoT telecon 2013-11-19 Hi All, Our next IDoT-call is coming up today. Hope to hear you soon! Best, Ingo Date and Time * Tuesday, November 19, at 9am PT (time chart)http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=IDoT+Conf+Call&iso=20131119T09&p1=224&ah=1&am=30 * Voice: Skype: +99051000000481 or US +1-805-309-2350 / Alternate Toll +1 (714) 551-9842 (international dial-in lineshttp://kantarainitiative.org/confluence/x/KYC_/), room code 613-2898# * (Turbobridge call optionshttps://www.turbobridge.com/join.html) Agenda * Roll call * Action item review * IDoT use-case collection * AOB Kind regards Ingo Friese Deutsche Telekom AG T-Labs (Research & Innovation) Dipl.-Ing. Ingo Friese Winterfeldtstr. 21, 10781 Berlin +4930835358148 (Phone) +49391580216849 (Fax) E-Mail: ingo.friese@telekom.demailto:ingo.friese@telekom.de www.telekom.comhttp://www.telekom.com/ Life is for sharing. DEUTSCHE TELEKOM AG Supervisory Board: Prof. Dr. Ulrich Lehner (Chairman) Board of Management: Ren? Obermann (Chairman), Reinhard Clemens, Niek Jan van Damme, Timotheus H?ttges, Dr. Thomas Kremer, Claudia Nemat, Prof. Dr. Marion Schick Commercial register: Amtsgericht Bonn HRB 6794 Registered office: Bonn Big changes start small - conserve resources by not printing every e-mail. _______________________________________________ DG-IDoT mailing list DG-IDoT@kantarainitiative.orgmailto:DG-IDoT@kantarainitiative.org http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/dg-idot

we're now live! On Tue, Nov 19, 2013 at 12:16 PM, Colin Wallis wrote:

Me too.. music only. Need Host pin to open he call? ------------------------------ From: Keith.Uber@ubisecure.com To: dg-idot@kantarainitiative.org Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2013 17:12:51 +0000 Subject: Re: [DG-IDoT] IDoT telecon 2013-11-19

same here, no audio...

------------------------------ *From:* dg-idot-bounces@kantarainitiative.org < dg-idot-bounces@kantarainitiative.org> on behalf of Salvatore D'Agostino < sal@idmachines.com> *Sent:* Tuesday, 19 November 2013 7:10 PM *To:* Ingo.Friese@telekom.de; dg-idot@kantarainitiative.org *Subject:* Re: [DG-IDoT] IDoT telecon 2013-11-19

On line

*From:* dg-idot-bounces@kantarainitiative.org [mailto: dg-idot-bounces@kantarainitiative.org] *On Behalf Of * Ingo.Friese@telekom.de *Sent:* Tuesday, November 19, 2013 9:36 AM *To:* dg-idot@kantarainitiative.org *Subject:* Re: [DG-IDoT] IDoT telecon 2013-11-19

Hi All,

Our next IDoT-call is coming up today. Hope to hear you soon!

Best,

Ingo

*Date and Time*

- Tuesday, November 19, at 9am PT (time chart)http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=IDoT+Conf+Call&iso=20131119T09&p1=224&ah=1&am=30 - Voice: Skype: +99051000000481 or US +1-805-309-2350 / Alternate Toll +1 (714) 551-9842 (international dial-in lineshttp://kantarainitiative.org/confluence/x/KYC_/), room code 613-2898# - (Turbobridge call options https://www.turbobridge.com/join.html)

*Agenda*

- Roll call - Action item review - IDoT use-case collection - AOB

Kind regards Ingo Friese

*Deutsche Telekom AG*

T-Labs (Research & Innovation) Dipl.-Ing. Ingo Friese Winterfeldtstr. 21, 10781 Berlin +4930835358148 (Phone)

+49391580216849 (Fax)

E-Mail: ingo.friese@telekom.de

www.telekom.com

*Life is for sharing.*

*DEUTSCHE TELEKOM AG* Supervisory Board: Prof. Dr. Ulrich Lehner (Chairman) Board of Management: René Obermann (Chairman), Reinhard Clemens, Niek Jan van Damme, Timotheus Höttges, Dr. Thomas Kremer, Claudia Nemat, Prof. Dr. Marion Schick Commercial register: Amtsgericht Bonn HRB 6794 Registered office: Bonn

*Big changes start small – conserve resources by not printing every e-mail.*

_______________________________________________ DG-IDoT mailing list DG-IDoT@kantarainitiative.org http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/dg-idot

_______________________________________________ DG-IDoT mailing list DG-IDoT@kantarainitiative.org http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/dg-idot

_______________________________________________ DG-IDoT mailing list DG-IDoT@kantarainitiative.org http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/dg-idot

-- Jeff Stollman stollman.j@gmail.com 1 202.683.8699 Truth never triumphs — its opponents just die out. Science advances one funeral at a time. Max Planck

Thanks Keith So to my action... veeeery basically... like this... Lots needs doing I know, but do you kinda get my drift? CheersColin From: Keith.Uber@ubisecure.com To: dg-idot@kantarainitiative.org Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2013 18:39:51 +0000 Subject: Re: [DG-IDoT] IDoT telecon 2013-11-19 / Minutes Minutes of the call are up on the wiki. https://kantarainitiative.org/confluence/x/hIHwAw Cheers, --Keith _______________________________________________ DG-IDoT mailing list DG-IDoT@kantarainitiative.org http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/dg-idot

Makes sense to me Sal. So how to add that in.. maybe create a new page entitled working glossary or something, add the 3 criteria and put your explanations in? Cheers Colin From: sal@idmachines.com To: colin_wallis@hotmail.com; keith.uber@ubisecure.com; dg-idot@kantarainitiative.org Subject: RE: [DG-IDoT] Stawman framework for Use Case Analysis/comparison Date: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 15:05:35 -0500 Colin, Thanks for starting this. I wonder if the following comments on in the spirit of what is going on here. As to measurement might that be related to a sense as in see, touch and those the units of those like lumens, calories. Perhaps some kinds and classes of attributes are there. This is kind of where I was going with the earlier notes in that they relates to the type of things you can do on the wires or radios in the previous set of docs. Also seems you might have calibration as part of the registration of “”measurement”” as part of the identity lifecycle for those things measuring. Sal From: dg-idot-bounces@kantarainitiative.org [mailto:dg-idot-bounces@kantarainitiative.org] On Behalf Of Colin Wallis Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 4:22 AM To: Keith Uber; dg-idot@kantarainitiative.org Subject: [DG-IDoT] Stawman framework for Use Case Analysis/comparison Thanks Keith So to my action... veeeery basically... like this... Lots needs doing I know, but do you kinda get my drift? Cheers Colin From: Keith.Uber@ubisecure.com To: dg-idot@kantarainitiative.org Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2013 18:39:51 +0000 Subject: Re: [DG-IDoT] IDoT telecon 2013-11-19 / Minutes Minutes of the call are up on the wiki. https://kantarainitiative.org/confluence/x/hIHwAw Cheers, --Keith _______________________________________________ DG-IDoT mailing list DG-IDoT@kantarainitiative.org http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/dg-idot

Sure, and I think the answer is partly explained in Ingo's Object Identity use case. Like Sal's suggestion, I think your contribution as to the scope of the identity owner needs to be added to the 'glossary page' of the spreadsheet (which hopefully, Sal is adding. :-)). CheersColin Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2013 12:20:17 -0500 Subject: Re: [DG-IDoT] Stawman framework for Use Case Analysis/comparison From: stollman.j@gmail.com To: sal@idmachines.com CC: colin_wallis@hotmail.com; keith.uber@ubisecure.com; dg-idot@kantarainitiative.org Colin, I don't disagree with the strawman as depicted. But I suspect that one area that may require further decomposition is the notion of "Identity Owner." I am not certain what this indicates. My first guess is that it is an attempt to specify the identity of the entity that "owns" the device. To me this is one of the stickiest issues of IoT. If I buy a device that collects my exercise data and presents it to me to help me manage my fitness, do I own the device? Do I own the data it generates? What if the device maker builds-in a data feed to their data warehouse to use the data to characterize the broader population of its users? If they charge me a subscription fee to access my data, do I really "own" the device? The car example adds even more complexity. I buy a car, but it has a built-in data feed to the manufacturer that transmit my driving behavior, my location, whether or not my airbag has deployed. Does it matter that I own the car, if the manufacturer owns the data? What happens to the ownership of the historical data when I sell the car to someone else? Are they entitled to the history? Or is it personal data that I retain rights to? (Could I buy a car formerly owned by a celebrity and analyze their data to profile them for an expose' in a magazine?) "Owners" may not be "controllers." While the issues of ownership can be resolved through contracts law, I think we need to consider the various ramifications in order to appreciate the ramifications of different contact arrangements. Thank you. Jeff On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 3:05 PM, Salvatore D'Agostino wrote: Colin, Thanks for starting this. I wonder if the following comments on in the spirit of what is going on here. As to measurement might that be related to a sense as in see, touch and those the units of those like lumens, calories. Perhaps some kinds and classes of attributes are there. This is kind of where I was going with the earlier notes in that they relates to the type of things you can do on the wires or radios in the previous set of docs. Also seems you might have calibration as part of the registration of “”measurement”” as part of the identity lifecycle for those things measuring. Sal From: dg-idot-bounces@kantarainitiative.org [mailto:dg-idot-bounces@kantarainitiative.org] On Behalf Of Colin Wallis Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 4:22 AM To: Keith Uber; dg-idot@kantarainitiative.org Subject: [DG-IDoT] Stawman framework for Use Case Analysis/comparison Thanks Keith So to my action... veeeery basically... like this... Lots needs doing I know, but do you kinda get my drift? Cheers Colin From: Keith.Uber@ubisecure.com To: dg-idot@kantarainitiative.org Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2013 18:39:51 +0000 Subject: Re: [DG-IDoT] IDoT telecon 2013-11-19 / Minutes Minutes of the call are up on the wiki. https://kantarainitiative.org/confluence/x/hIHwAw Cheers, --Keith _______________________________________________ DG-IDoT mailing list DG-IDoT@kantarainitiative.org http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/dg-idot _______________________________________________ DG-IDoT mailing list DG-IDoT@kantarainitiative.org http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/dg-idot -- Jeff Stollman stollman.j@gmail.com 1 202.683.8699 Truth never triumphs — its opponents just die out.Science advances one funeral at a time. Max Planck

Ingo and Jeff, Great item for focus. We might look at the OnStar or other vehicle services for car folks. Traffic data is a pretty good analog. Best, Sal From: Ingo.Friese@telekom.de [mailto:Ingo.Friese@telekom.de] Sent: Friday, November 22, 2013 4:10 AM To: stollman.j@gmail.com Cc: dg-idot@kantarainitiative.org; sal@idmachines.com Subject: RE: [DG-IDoT] Stawman framework for Use Case Analysis/comparison Jeff, I see the same privacy problem. I described it in a former mail. I have a project with a manufacturer of harvesters. In fact these people collect data in a machine that is owned by a farmer. But the manufacturer collects data with an attitude as he is the owner of these data. To get worst the manufacturer wants to sell these data to the farmer. I thought about asking our Kantara privacy and public policy group. I hope they can give us opinions, hints or a bit guidance here. Best Ingo From: dg-idot-bounces@kantarainitiative.org [mailto:dg-idot-bounces@kantarainitiative.org] On Behalf Of j stollman Sent: Donnerstag, 21. November 2013 18:20 To: Salvatore D'Agostino Cc: dg-idot@kantarainitiative.org Subject: Re: [DG-IDoT] Stawman framework for Use Case Analysis/comparison Colin, I don't disagree with the strawman as depicted. But I suspect that one area that may require further decomposition is the notion of "Identity Owner." I am not certain what this indicates. My first guess is that it is an attempt to specify the identity of the entity that "owns" the device. To me this is one of the stickiest issues of IoT. If I buy a device that collects my exercise data and presents it to me to help me manage my fitness, do I own the device? Do I own the data it generates? What if the device maker builds-in a data feed to their data warehouse to use the data to characterize the broader population of its users? If they charge me a subscription fee to access my data, do I really "own" the device? The car example adds even more complexity. I buy a car, but it has a built-in data feed to the manufacturer that transmit my driving behavior, my location, whether or not my airbag has deployed. Does it matter that I own the car, if the manufacturer owns the data? What happens to the ownership of the historical data when I sell the car to someone else? Are they entitled to the history? Or is it personal data that I retain rights to? (Could I buy a car formerly owned by a celebrity and analyze their data to profile them for an expose' in a magazine?) "Owners" may not be "controllers." While the issues of ownership can be resolved through contracts law, I think we need to consider the various ramifications in order to appreciate the ramifications of different contact arrangements. Thank you. Jeff On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 3:05 PM, Salvatore D'Agostino wrote: Colin, Thanks for starting this. I wonder if the following comments on in the spirit of what is going on here. As to measurement might that be related to a sense as in see, touch and those the units of those like lumens, calories. Perhaps some kinds and classes of attributes are there. This is kind of where I was going with the earlier notes in that they relates to the type of things you can do on the wires or radios in the previous set of docs. Also seems you might have calibration as part of the registration of ""measurement"" as part of the identity lifecycle for those things measuring. Sal From: dg-idot-bounces@kantarainitiative.org [mailto:dg-idot-bounces@kantarainitiative.org] On Behalf Of Colin Wallis Sent: Wednesday, November 20, 2013 4:22 AM To: Keith Uber; dg-idot@kantarainitiative.org Subject: [DG-IDoT] Stawman framework for Use Case Analysis/comparison Thanks Keith So to my action... veeeery basically... like this... Lots needs doing I know, but do you kinda get my drift? Cheers Colin _____ From: Keith.Uber@ubisecure.com To: dg-idot@kantarainitiative.org Date: Tue, 19 Nov 2013 18:39:51 +0000 Subject: Re: [DG-IDoT] IDoT telecon 2013-11-19 / Minutes Minutes of the call are up on the wiki. https://kantarainitiative.org/confluence/x/hIHwAw Cheers, --Keith _______________________________________________ DG-IDoT mailing list DG-IDoT@kantarainitiative.org http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/dg-idot _______________________________________________ DG-IDoT mailing list DG-IDoT@kantarainitiative.org http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/dg-idot -- Jeff Stollman stollman.j@gmail.com 1 202.683.8699 Truth never triumphs - its opponents just die out. Science advances one funeral at a time. Max Planck