Kaliya,
I think I hear you. Yes, different frames can get in the way, that’s why forums for discussing different points of view (such as this one) are so valuable.
Regarding the “auditor talk”, you caught me unintentionally straw-manning, Kaliya, thank you. I agree that nobody is suggesting mandatory bias audits. But I think it’s an open question whether the organization would seek to develop resources to assist members in self-assessing against the code, I would like to hear some discussion of that topic.
I agree with the observations that bias is very difficult for people and organizations to self-assess. I would point out that the language in the code refers to “acts of discrimination” rather than bias, perhaps because overt acts are considerably more measurable than invisible qualities such as bias.
Let me try to put it very plainly. As identity pros engineer their systems, they will build features to either assist or hinder those who want to use identity data for discriminatory purposes. I would prefer that the code of conduct give them a hint as to which way to do it.
-
Scott
From: Kaliya Identity Woman
Date: Wednesday, December 7, 2016 at 2:47 PM
To: Scott Shorter
Cc: David Chadwick , "dg-idpro@kantarainitiative.org"
Subject: Re: [DG-IDPro] Reminder: ID Pro Discussion Group meeting today at 11am ET
On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 11:20 AM, Scott Shorter mailto:scott.shorter@kuma.pro> wrote:
Greetings David and congratulations for the award and welcome to the conversation.
I would say that gathering member compliance metrics about bias
Sigh - this is where different frames get in the way.
How do you know if you have bias or not? you have to look at it and measure it.
It isn't about "compliance" in theway that one passes an audit.
It is about how do we be better people and work towards the VERY LOFTY ideal seth forth in the conde of concudct around these isseus.
If one is from the dominant cutlure in North American society one can not hope to actually "be" in alignement with teh aspiration of the code of conduct without doing some inner (reflective) and outer (practice) work around the issues. And it isn't comfortable either.
or any other topic is NOT what the code of conduct should be used for, but I suppose it depends how active the ID Pro organization is envisioned to be in the enforcement of the code of conduct.
Before we get to talking about enforcement - can we talk about skill building and trying to actually have 1) awareness 2) some skills 3) good skills
I think what David was suggesting is people actually doing some kind of assessment that in aggreagate and gives metrics - not that you "pass or fail" on these things it is are you improving and are we as a communtiy improving.
Applying the same rubric across the board, one might ask if the ID Pro organization will be responsible for actively monitoring relationships among members for conflict of interest violations. Let’s hear some opinions on that.
Thoughts? Thanks!
-
Scott
On 12/7/16, 1:59 PM, "David Chadwick" mailto:D.W.Chadwick@kent.ac.uk> wrote:
I was responsible for our department being awarded an Athena Swan Bronze
Award, whose original objective was to increase the number of women in
science and computing (see http://www.ecu.ac.uk/). I can agree with
Kaliya that getting people to admit that bias exists is quite hard,
getting them to see that unconscious bias exists is even harder, and
getting them to change the processes and procedures so that they are
bias free is harder still. We started on this path as a department three
years ago and still have several more years ahead of us before we can
assert that we are bias free. Writing anti-discrimination clauses into
our ID-PRO code of conduct is a very noble aim, but it takes real effort
and resources to make it happen. This implies that some of the annual
membership fee should be directed towards this end, and that there are
effective ways of measuring the amount of bias/non-bias in the members.
Without metrics the whole process becomes a simple paper ticking
exercise, which is somewhat pointless.
regards
David
On 07/12/2016 18:18, Kaliya Identity Woman wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 11:38 AM, Scott Shorter mailto:scott.shorter@kuma.pro
> mailto:scott.shorter@kuma.pro>> wrote:
>
> Hi Kaliya,____
>
> __ __
>
> A fair question - identity and bias are certainly inter-related
> issues. Who do you envision would be the recipient of such training?
>
>
> The ID professionals you are suggesting follow this code of conduct.
>
>
>
> ____
>
>
> At a minimum, I would imagine that the code of conduct should
> provoke some evaluation of actual and potential practices against
> the objectives, which would be a good start.
>
>
> Most ID Professionals that I have met do not have any good knowledge or
> training around these issues.
>
> When I have brought issues up around these topics in professional
> settings they make people VERY VERY uncomfortable.
>
>
>
> ____
>
> __ __
>
> Thanks for the input,
> Scott____
>
> __ __
>
> *From: *Kaliya Identity Woman mailto:kaliya@identitywoman.net
> mailto:kaliya@identitywoman.net>>
> *Date: *Wednesday, December 7, 2016 at 12:19 PM
> *To: *Scott Shorter mailto:scott.shorter@kuma.pro
> mailto:scott.shorter@kuma.pro>>
> *Cc: *Megan Cannon mailto:megan@kantarainitiative.org
> mailto:megan@kantarainitiative.org>>,
> "dg-idpro@kantarainitiative.orgmailto:dg-idpro@kantarainitiative.org
> mailto:dg-idpro@kantarainitiative.org>"
> mailto:dg-idpro@kantarainitiative.org mailto:dg-idpro@kantarainitiative.org>>
> *Subject: *Re: [DG-IDPro] Reminder: ID Pro Discussion Group meeting
> today at 11am ET____
>
> __ __
>
> Given this statement is in the code of conduct ____
>
> __ __
>
> __ __
>
> __· __I will treat fairly all persons and not engage in acts
> of discrimination based on race, religion, gender, disability, age,
> citizenship, national origin, veteran status, sexual orientation,
> gender identity, or gender expression."____
>
> __ __
>
> Are we as an organization going to be offering rigorous training
> around how to address implicit bias? And understanding the dynamics
> and issues that are in play when dealing with marginalized
> communities. Relative to communities of color and people who are
> white Americans this is sometimes called White Awareness Training or
> Anti-Racism Training.____
>
> __ __
>
> There is similar work to be done around sexism (men relative to
> women) and relative to gender identity issues. ____
>
> __ __
>
> Along with training to be aware of religion etc. ____
>
> __ __
>
> __ __
>
> If we do not offer resources to live into the statements we should
> not be making the statements a requirement of "the profession". ____
>
> __ __
>
> __ __
>
> __ __
>
> On Wed, Dec 7, 2016 at 9:14 AM, Scott Shorter
> mailto:scott.shorter@kuma.pro mailto:scott.shorter@kuma.pro>> wrote:____
>
> My apologies for missing the meeting, I had a prior conflict at
> that time. The wiki is up to date with the status of the code
> of conduct project
> https://kantarainitiative.org/confluence/display/idpro/Codes+of+Conduct+Spac....
> Please let me know if any questions or comments came up.____
>
> ____
>
> Is 11am the new meeting time going forward? ____
>
> ____
>
> Regards,____
>
> Scott____
>
> ____
>
> *From: *mailto:dg-idpro-bounces@kantarainitiative.org
> mailto:dg-idpro-bounces@kantarainitiative.org>> on behalf of
> Megan Cannon mailto:megan@kantarainitiative.org
> mailto:megan@kantarainitiative.org>>
> *Date: *Wednesday, December 7, 2016 at 9:07 AM
> *To: *"dg-idpro@kantarainitiative.orgmailto:dg-idpro@kantarainitiative.org
> mailto:dg-idpro@kantarainitiative.org>"
> mailto:dg-idpro@kantarainitiative.org
> mailto:dg-idpro@kantarainitiative.org>>
> *Subject: *[DG-IDPro] Reminder: ID Pro Discussion Group meeting
> today at 11am ET____
>
> ____
>
> Greetings,____
>
> ____
>
> Please join the Kantara ID Pro Discussion Group call today at
> 11:00am ET.____
>
> ____
>
> The call details are below for your reference.____
>
> ____
>
> All the best,____
>
> Megan____
>
> ____
>
> *Agenda:*____
>
> * Project teams report out ____
>
> o Body of Knowledge / Taxonomy - Thorsten Niebuhr____
> o Codes of Conduct / Practice - Scott Shorter____
> o Membership Models / Services - Giles Watkins____
> o Governance / Structure - Sarah Squire____
>
> * Participation level discussion____
>
> ____
>
> *
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *
>
> ____
>
> *Wednesday, December 7*____
>
> *11:00am Eastern Standard Time (UTC -5h)*____
>
> ____
>
> *Please join my meeting from your computer, tablet or smartphone.
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> http://help.citrix.com/getready____
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