I don’t think we necessarily need to move on, but I also don’t think we necessarily need to stay. All traditions must be examined with the honest question: “why are we still doing this?”

If the answer comes back with only “because we did it like this before”, then you really need to be willing to examine a break from that. This is the sentiment that I’m getting from your statement below: that’s how it was before. It’s inertia, put simply. “We’ve always done it this way” is not an argument that should be allowed to stand on its own, if you ask me, but it should serve some higher purpose as well.

Remember, a project logo serves a purpose. It’s an identity, it’s shorthand, it’s recognizable. It needs to work in many different locations, sizes, backgrounds, and contexts. Something that can represent without needing to be explained to people. I should be able to throw this into the footer of a server as an icon, or into a full screen slide in a presentation. I need to be able to put it in with the OAuth token and a bunch of other stuff as well. I need to be able to paste it onto pictures of Tony Stark. 

Think of recognizable and functional logos: Python’s stylized double snakes, Spring’s leaf-on-a-field, Github’s Octocat, Drupal’s droplet with eyes, and even the OAuth bus token. All of these have some design influence of the underlying project’s function or history behind them, but they also work to stand out as being recognizable and different from others. 

The logo that I proposed incorporates the three overlapping circles and the spiral, but in subtle and not-explicit ways. I’m not saying it’s perfect or even ideal, but it’s much closer to the kind of design language and representation I’d be comfortable with. The versions with the venn diagram and spiral explicitly incorporated feel forced in, to me, and “too clever for its own good”. Perfect example: the spiral having the “golden ratio” and presuming that’s memorable. These things are there because they’re meaningful to some people in the project, but this is to represent us to people outside the project. I’ve made that same error a *lot* myself — just look at my own company’s current logo sometime for an example of something I really ought to redo sometime. :-P 

So what I’m asking you all to do, especially those that have been with the project for a long time, is to evaluate this in light of what the rest of the world will see. I’m asking you to put aside your nostalgia and the comfort of the familiar, and see if you really do like those elements for all the reasons you thought, or just because it’s “always been that way”. I think we can capture the spirit of the project without being tied inexorably to its past.

 — Justin

On Jul 21, 2017, at 2:04 PM, Maciej Machulak <maciej.machulak@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi all,

Thanks for the input, all very good comments! Appreciated.

I am unsure if/why we would want to move on from traditions? The core of what we (as a group) have been trying to achieve has not changed. I don't think it will change even we ever reach version 3 of the protocol. The original logo has been great and widely used since its beginning.

I think that we will need to end up with some kind of voting to make sure that our work gains a visual form that most (if not all) are comfortable with.

If we can agree with this process here on the list then great. Otherwise it will need to be at the next call.


BR, Maciej




On Fri, 21 Jul 2017, 5:56 pm Justin Richer, <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
Thanks Dom. I appreciate the history, but I still think it may be time to move on from old traditions.

 — Justin

On Jul 21, 2017, at 11:40 AM, Domenico Catalano <domenico.catalano@oracle.com> wrote:

Justin,

Just to explain the original concepts:

The original UMA logo concept was very simple and at the basis there are three stylized circles which represent the idea for intersecting RO data (originally Authorizaing User, 2010) with Requesting Party, brokered by the AS.  

The spiral concept was born when we tried to represent “trustworthiness" distances between the AS and the other parties, and then we used it for the powerful art and math properties it has: “the golden section”, which is memorable ;-)

The new concept is based on the spiral to built the external frame. 

Dom

<PastedGraphic-5.png>

Domenico

On 21 Jul 2017, at 15:45, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:

With all respect for the work that Domenico has put into this in the past and currently, I’m honestly not a fan of the venn or the spiral being added back in. Both of them feel forced, like they’re only there because they’re “supposed to” be there. I have never even really understood what the venn was meant to represent or imply, apart from the fact that they’re Eve’s Favorite Thing Ever. :) Even if they do represent something, symbols in a logo can often add clutter. So I took them out entirely from my redesign to start with a somewhat more clean slate. 

To me, the UMA logo should stand on its own. It’s fine to have nods and elements toward related things (like the hinted spiral in my suggested design), but I don’t see a good reason for it to copy these other elements. This is why I don’t even care for re-using the Kantara colors but choosing something in a related area of the palette instead. 

I would like to see us have something clean, distinctive, and memorable. If you have to explain to someone how clever your logo is and what all the parts represent, it doesn’t meet any of those goals.

All that said, logos are hard and we could easily bike shed on this for ages. Might be worthwhile to have a design contest where we let people publicly vote on which ones they like, and then have the chairs pick something using that as heavy feedback to their decision. I’m happy to iterate on my take if people have suggestions.

 — Justin


On Jul 21, 2017, at 6:53 AM, Maciej Machulak <maciej.machulak@gmail.com> wrote:

If you can optimise for size then I think we are there.


On Fri, 21 Jul 2017, 12:51 pm Maciej Machulak, <maciej.machulak@gmail.com> wrote:

Domenico this looks great!!!


On Fri, 21 Jul 2017, 12:48 pm Domenico Catalano, <domenico.catalano@oracle.com> wrote:
Hi Justin,

To avoid completely to lost the connection with the original logo, it could be interesting to stylizing the text using the venn ballon as background, and a visibile magic spiral to fill the space inside the circle (harmonized with the external frame). The original font was GILL SANS Light.

This is an example, not optimized for size proportions.

Domenico


On 21 Jul 2017, at 11:49, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:

FWIW here’s the same thing with Kantara’s colors and a facsimile of the Kantara font (it’s not exact — can a Kantara person get me that font, or is it a logotype?)

<PastedGraphic-3.png>

Personally I would prefer we use our own distinct color palette for the project, but I do like the font style.


 — Justin

On Jul 21, 2017, at 5:06 AM, James Phillpotts <james.phillpotts@forgerock.com> wrote:

+1 to Justin's from me too - with a different font perhaps ;)

On 21 July 2017 at 10:01, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
By “Same width all around” do you mean a full circle? Because I’m liking the crescent instead of just a wrapping ring. If you mean the size of the segments themselves, we could make those three bits more even, but the asymmetry is aesthetically pleasing to me, personally.

As for the palette and font I just pulled those out of thin air. I literally put this together in five minutes. :)  Don’t think we really need to match Kantara’s colors but there’s no harm in doing so if there are strong feelings.

 — Justin

On Jul 20, 2017, at 9:46 PM, Eve Maler <eve@xmlgrrl.com> wrote:

I like the spiral aspect in the ring of Justin's version, and the clean lines. It would be nice to have Domenico's original UMA1 font and color palette (which aligns with Kantara's logo). I'd also love to see a ring that has the same width all the way around.

What's the graphic equivalent of wordsmithing? :-)

Eve Maler (sent from my iPad) | cell +1 425 345 6756

On Jul 20, 2017, at 6:26 PM, Adrian Gropper <agropper@healthurl.com> wrote:

+1 Justin's

On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 6:38 PM Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
* a quick <<jab>>

Thank you, autocorrect.

 — Justin

On Jul 20, 2017, at 6:36 PM, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:

Thanks! Sorry I missed this part of the call, and thanks to Domenico for putting this idea together.

The design elements are OK, but the shadows and gradients are too much, if you ask me. It all feels very, very busy. It won’t scale well with all of this stuff going on inside (think icon-sized to embed on a page), and today’s visual design language is largely going to flat colors anyway. At least in the last few years it has, I’m not really up on what’s “in” in the UI world. 

I like the idea of the spiral around the outside though, and I took a quick java at something more simplified:

<PastedGraphic-2.png>

Gets rid of the internal noise and leaves us with just the project name and something somewhat recognizable. Yes, Eve, it gets rid of the venns — but I think that’s a good thing. :) Not totally sold on the font yet to be honest but it’s something.

 — Justin

On Jul 20, 2017, at 3:56 PM, Eve Maler <eve@xmlgrrl.com> wrote:

Sorry about that. Second try.


Eve Maler
Cell +1 425.345.6756 | Skype: xmlgrrl | Twitter: @xmlgrrl


On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 12:25 PM, Justin Richer <jricher@mit.edu> wrote:
The logo did not attach — I think Gmail ate it.

 — Justin

On Jul 20, 2017, at 2:23 PM, Eve Maler <eve@xmlgrrl.com> wrote:

Here is Domenico's proposal. Let's not use any proposals/drafts till we settle on something.
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