Very much agree Jon, Personal data control, what is achieved through ‘real' consent, is required for many things - among them is managing commercial relationships with vendors. But, VRM, in my opinion, would not be the only core driver for change. I still think compliance, combined with customer experience, is going to be the market driver. Personal data does not need to be destroyed if access to it only needs to be revoked, i.e. with UMA. I wrote a piece on this in 2011 for Identity Trust discussing how data protection industry is destroying privacy and undermining national security (not only the individual). The long and short version being, volunteered personal information is much more valuable to organisations. Personal control over my data is the best method of transferring data internationally with compliance and high levels of customer experience. - Mark

On 6 Oct 2015, at 14:53, James Hazard wrote:

Do you mean that consent of the person permits transfer of data, but consent is necessarily revocable and data must be destroyed?

On Oct 6, 2015 3:40 PM, "Neiditz, Jon" mailto:JNeiditz@kilpatricktownsend.com> wrote: Why?

The Advocate General's opinion and the Court's decision both turn on the inability of Safe Harbor to prevent surveillance. NO permitted basis for data transfer prevents surveillance, not Model Clauses, not Binding Corporate Rules (BCRs). Logically, if probably not in immediate corporate and EU national practice, the only bulletproof basis for data transfer to the US is now the ever-so-revocable CONSENT, which presumes no fictitious protection from surveillance.

See also: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/good-morning-safe-harbor-dead-what-does-mean-... https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/good-morning-safe-harbor-dead-what-does-mean-...

Your thoughts?

Jon Neiditz Kilpatrick Townsend & Stockton LLP Suite 2800 | 1100 Peachtree Street NE | Atlanta, GA 30309-4528 office 404 815 6004 tel:404%20815%206004 | cell 678-427-7809 tel:678-427-7809 | fax 770 234 6341 tel:770%20234%206341 jneiditz@kilpatricktownsend.com mailto:jneiditz@kilpatricktownsend.com | www.kilpatricktownsend.com http://www.kilpatricktownsend.com/

________________________________

Confidentiality Notice: This communication constitutes an electronic communication within the meaning of the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. Section 2510, and its disclosure is strictly limited to the recipient intended by the sender of this message. This transmission, and any attachments, may contain confidential attorney-client privileged information and attorney work product. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. Please contact us immediately by return e-mail or at 404 815 6500 tel:404%20815%206500, and destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner.

________________________________

***DISCLAIMER*** Per Treasury Department Circular 230: Any U.S. federal tax advice contained in this communication (including any attachments) is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed herein. _______________________________________________ WG-UMA mailing list WG-UMA@kantarainitiative.org mailto:WG-UMA@kantarainitiative.org http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/wg-uma http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/wg-uma _______________________________________________ WG-UMA mailing list WG-UMA@kantarainitiative.org http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/wg-uma

FWIW: http://new.commonaccord.org/index.php?action=source&file=GHx/KantaraInitiative/EU-US/Form/Doc_v0.md On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 6:17 PM, Adrian Gropper wrote:

+1 Mark. UMA enables data to be accessed by reference instead of by value and reduces the need to copy it. With UMA, authorization servers become the primary point of aggregation (as well as notice for transparency) and the need for data brokers and deletion problems is reduced.

UMA shifts the discussion to control and transparency of surveillance and aggregation, and it scales to serve personal, family, local, virtual community, national, and international "clouds".

Adrian

On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 11:18 AM, Mark Lizar wrote:

...

Very much agree Jon,

Personal data control, what is achieved through ‘real' consent, is required for many things - among them is managing commercial relationships with vendors. But, VRM, in my opinion, would not be the only core driver for change. I still think compliance, combined with customer experience, is going to be the market driver.

Personal data does not need to be destroyed if access to it only needs to be revoked, i.e. with UMA. I wrote a piece on this in 2011 for Identity Trust discussing how data protection industry is destroying privacy and undermining national security (not only the individual). The long and short version being, volunteered personal information is much more valuable to organisations. Personal control over my data is *the* best method of transferring data internationally with compliance and high levels of customer experience.

- Mark

On 6 Oct 2015, at 14:53, James Hazard wrote:

Do you mean that consent of the person permits transfer of data, but consent is necessarily revocable and data must be destroyed?

On Oct 6, 2015 3:40 PM, "Neiditz, Jon" wrote:

...

Why?

The Advocate General's opinion and the Court's decision both turn on the inability of Safe Harbor to prevent surveillance. NO permitted basis for data transfer prevents surveillance, not Model Clauses, not Binding Corporate Rules (BCRs). Logically, if probably not in immediate corporate and EU national practice, the only bulletproof basis for data transfer to the US is now the ever-so-revocable CONSENT, which presumes no fictitious protection from surveillance.

See also: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/good-morning-safe-harbor-dead-what-does-mean-...

Your thoughts?

Jon Neiditz Kilpatrick Townsend & Stockton LLP Suite 2800 | 1100 Peachtree Street NE | Atlanta, GA 30309-4528 office 404 815 6004 | cell 678-427-7809 | fax 770 234 6341 jneiditz@kilpatricktownsend.com | www.kilpatricktownsend.com

________________________________

Confidentiality Notice: This communication constitutes an electronic communication within the meaning of the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. Section 2510, and its disclosure is strictly limited to the recipient intended by the sender of this message. This transmission, and any attachments, may contain confidential attorney-client privileged information and attorney work product. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. Please contact us immediately by return e-mail or at 404 815 6500, and destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner.

________________________________

***DISCLAIMER*** Per Treasury Department Circular 230: Any U.S. federal tax advice contained in this communication (including any attachments) is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed herein. _______________________________________________ WG-UMA mailing list WG-UMA@kantarainitiative.org http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/wg-uma

_______________________________________________ WG-UMA mailing list WG-UMA@kantarainitiative.org http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/wg-uma

_______________________________________________ WG-UMA mailing list WG-UMA@kantarainitiative.org http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/wg-uma

--

Adrian Gropper MD

PROTECT YOUR FUTURE - RESTORE Health Privacy! HELP us fight for the right to control personal health data. DONATE: http://patientprivacyrights.org/donate-2/

-- @commonaccord

Some “BLT continuum” observations about costs and benefits: To the extent that data is volatile and has a short “half-life”, data accessed gets more attractive to access by reference. (That’s why we tend to point to calendars rather than get snapshots of them.) Also, to the extent that data is resource-intensive or difficult to construct/collect/reconstruct oneself, it gets more attractive to access from a good “source of truth”. (A counterexample — I think — is that this is why if someone needs to know your blood type, they just test for it rather than going through the rigamarole of doing federated sign-in, data discovery, consented data access, blah blah blah.) A challenging counterexample about volatility is one’s genome. It’s really not very volatile, so once it’s out there…it’s really out there. This is where extracting a “purpose of use” agreement from the requesting party gets more and more attractive, and more enforceable agreements are more attractive than less enforceable ones. Eve

On 6 Oct 2015, at 6:17 PM, Adrian Gropper wrote:

+1 Mark. UMA enables data to be accessed by reference instead of by value and reduces the need to copy it. With UMA, authorization servers become the primary point of aggregation (as well as notice for transparency) and the need for data brokers and deletion problems is reduced.

UMA shifts the discussion to control and transparency of surveillance and aggregation, and it scales to serve personal, family, local, virtual community, national, and international "clouds".

Adrian

On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 11:18 AM, Mark Lizar mailto:mark@smartspecies.com> wrote: Very much agree Jon,

Personal data control, what is achieved through ‘real' consent, is required for many things - among them is managing commercial relationships with vendors. But, VRM, in my opinion, would not be the only core driver for change. I still think compliance, combined with customer experience, is going to be the market driver.

Personal data does not need to be destroyed if access to it only needs to be revoked, i.e. with UMA. I wrote a piece on this in 2011 for Identity Trust discussing how data protection industry is destroying privacy and undermining national security (not only the individual). The long and short version being, volunteered personal information is much more valuable to organisations. Personal control over my data is the best method of transferring data internationally with compliance and high levels of customer experience.

- Mark

...

On 6 Oct 2015, at 14:53, James Hazard mailto:james.g.hazard@gmail.com> wrote:

Do you mean that consent of the person permits transfer of data, but consent is necessarily revocable and data must be destroyed?

On Oct 6, 2015 3:40 PM, "Neiditz, Jon" mailto:JNeiditz@kilpatricktownsend.com> wrote: Why?

The Advocate General's opinion and the Court's decision both turn on the inability of Safe Harbor to prevent surveillance. NO permitted basis for data transfer prevents surveillance, not Model Clauses, not Binding Corporate Rules (BCRs). Logically, if probably not in immediate corporate and EU national practice, the only bulletproof basis for data transfer to the US is now the ever-so-revocable CONSENT, which presumes no fictitious protection from surveillance.

See also: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/good-morning-safe-harbor-dead-what-does-mean-... https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/good-morning-safe-harbor-dead-what-does-mean-...

Your thoughts?

Jon Neiditz Kilpatrick Townsend & Stockton LLP Suite 2800 | 1100 Peachtree Street NE | Atlanta, GA 30309-4528 office 404 815 6004 tel:404%20815%206004 | cell 678-427-7809 tel:678-427-7809 | fax 770 234 6341 tel:770%20234%206341 jneiditz@kilpatricktownsend.com mailto:jneiditz@kilpatricktownsend.com | www.kilpatricktownsend.com http://www.kilpatricktownsend.com/

________________________________

Confidentiality Notice: This communication constitutes an electronic communication within the meaning of the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. Section 2510, and its disclosure is strictly limited to the recipient intended by the sender of this message. This transmission, and any attachments, may contain confidential attorney-client privileged information and attorney work product. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. Please contact us immediately by return e-mail or at 404 815 6500 tel:404%20815%206500, and destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner.

________________________________

***DISCLAIMER*** Per Treasury Department Circular 230: Any U.S. federal tax advice contained in this communication (including any attachments) is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed herein. _______________________________________________ WG-UMA mailing list WG-UMA@kantarainitiative.org mailto:WG-UMA@kantarainitiative.org http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/wg-uma http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/wg-uma _______________________________________________ WG-UMA mailing list WG-UMA@kantarainitiative.org mailto:WG-UMA@kantarainitiative.org http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/wg-uma http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/wg-uma

_______________________________________________ WG-UMA mailing list WG-UMA@kantarainitiative.org mailto:WG-UMA@kantarainitiative.org http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/wg-uma http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/wg-uma

--

Adrian Gropper MD

PROTECT YOUR FUTURE - RESTORE Health Privacy! HELP us fight for the right to control personal health data. DONATE: http://patientprivacyrights.org/donate-2/ http://patientprivacyrights.org/donate-2/_______________________________________________ WG-UMA mailing list WG-UMA@kantarainitiative.org http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/wg-uma

Eve Maler | cell +1 425.345.6756 | Skype: xmlgrrl | Twitter: @xmlgrrl | Calendar: xmlgrrl@gmail.com

The whole concept of consent with regard to personal information (be it identified or de-identified) is problematic in a highly connected system with infinite memory. In this new world order (high connectivity and infinite storage), we need to shift from prior consent to transaction authorization. Consider what it means to grant prior consent to your genome. Your decision affects your ancestors and your descendants. The way that your genome will be interpreted a year from now is almost completely unknowable today and hence you cannot be informed of the consequences of that interpretation. The genome is not as extreme a case as it might seem. Any high-dimensional data about you and your family is subject to the same issues. We need to reconsider the cost/benefit of giving Facebook and Google and Surescripts and our favorite large research organization consent to any personal data aggregation whatsoever. UMA paves the path away from prior consent to transaction authorization. Adrian On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 3:45 PM, Thomas Hardjono wrote:

Hi Mark,

...

...

...

Personal control over my data is the best method of transferring data internationally with compliance and high levels of customer experience.

I'll throw in my thoughts: We need new economic model that incentives individual data-owners to "share" their personal data, where consent can be given & retracted.

This is where UMA comes in.

/thomas/

________________________________________ From: wg-uma-bounces@kantarainitiative.org [ wg-uma-bounces@kantarainitiative.org] on behalf of Eve Maler [ eve@xmlgrrl.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 3:24 PM To: Adrian Gropper Cc: WG UMA; ProjectVRM list Subject: Re: [WG-UMA] The Death of Safe Harbor is the Ultimate VRM and UMA Legal Opportunity

Some “BLT continuum” observations about costs and benefits:

To the extent that data is volatile and has a short “half-life”, data accessed gets more attractive to access by reference. (That’s why we tend to point to calendars rather than get snapshots of them.) Also, to the extent that data is resource-intensive or difficult to construct/collect/reconstruct oneself, it gets more attractive to access from a good “source of truth”. (A counterexample — I think — is that this is why if someone needs to know your blood type, they just test for it rather than going through the rigamarole of doing federated sign-in, data discovery, consented data access, blah blah blah.)

A challenging counterexample about volatility is one’s genome. It’s really not very volatile, so once it’s out there…it’s really out there. This is where extracting a “purpose of use” agreement from the requesting party gets more and more attractive, and more enforceable agreements are more attractive than less enforceable ones.

Eve

On 6 Oct 2015, at 6:17 PM, Adrian Gropper > wrote:

+1 Mark. UMA enables data to be accessed by reference instead of by value and reduces the need to copy it. With UMA, authorization servers become the primary point of aggregation (as well as notice for transparency) and the need for data brokers and deletion problems is reduced.

UMA shifts the discussion to control and transparency of surveillance and aggregation, and it scales to serve personal, family, local, virtual community, national, and international "clouds".

Adrian

On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 11:18 AM, Mark Lizar > wrote: Very much agree Jon,

Personal data control, what is achieved through ‘real' consent, is required for many things - among them is managing commercial relationships with vendors. But, VRM, in my opinion, would not be the only core driver for change. I still think compliance, combined with customer experience, is going to be the market driver.

Personal data does not need to be destroyed if access to it only needs to be revoked, i.e. with UMA. I wrote a piece on this in 2011 for Identity Trust discussing how data protection industry is destroying privacy and undermining national security (not only the individual). The long and short version being, volunteered personal information is much more valuable to organisations. Personal control over my data is the best method of transferring data internationally with compliance and high levels of customer experience.

- Mark

On 6 Oct 2015, at 14:53, James Hazard > wrote:

Do you mean that consent of the person permits transfer of data, but consent is necessarily revocable and data must be destroyed?

On Oct 6, 2015 3:40 PM, "Neiditz, Jon" mailto:JNeiditz@kilpatricktownsend.com> wrote: Why?

The Advocate General's opinion and the Court's decision both turn on the inability of Safe Harbor to prevent surveillance. NO permitted basis for data transfer prevents surveillance, not Model Clauses, not Binding Corporate Rules (BCRs). Logically, if probably not in immediate corporate and EU national practice, the only bulletproof basis for data transfer to the US is now the ever-so-revocable CONSENT, which presumes no fictitious protection from surveillance.

See also: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/good-morning-safe-harbor-dead-what-does-mean-...

Your thoughts?

Jon Neiditz Kilpatrick Townsend & Stockton LLP Suite 2800 | 1100 Peachtree Street NE | Atlanta, GA 30309-4528 office 404 815 6004tel:404%20815%206004 | cell 678-427-7809 | fax 770 234 6341tel:770%20234%206341 jneiditz@kilpatricktownsend.commailto:jneiditz@kilpatricktownsend.com | www.kilpatricktownsend.comhttp://www.kilpatricktownsend.com/

________________________________

Confidentiality Notice: This communication constitutes an electronic communication within the meaning of the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. Section 2510, and its disclosure is strictly limited to the recipient intended by the sender of this message. This transmission, and any attachments, may contain confidential attorney-client privileged information and attorney work product. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. Please contact us immediately by return e-mail or at 404 815 6500tel:404%20815%206500, and destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner.

________________________________

***DISCLAIMER*** Per Treasury Department Circular 230: Any U.S. federal tax advice contained in this communication (including any attachments) is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed herein. _______________________________________________ WG-UMA mailing list WG-UMA@kantarainitiative.orgmailto:WG-UMA@kantarainitiative.org http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/wg-uma _______________________________________________ WG-UMA mailing list WG-UMA@kantarainitiative.orgmailto:WG-UMA@kantarainitiative.org http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/wg-uma

_______________________________________________ WG-UMA mailing list WG-UMA@kantarainitiative.orgmailto:WG-UMA@kantarainitiative.org http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/wg-uma

--

Adrian Gropper MD

PROTECT YOUR FUTURE - RESTORE Health Privacy! HELP us fight for the right to control personal health data. DONATE: http://patientprivacyrights.org/donate-2/ _______________________________________________ WG-UMA mailing list WG-UMA@kantarainitiative.orgmailto:WG-UMA@kantarainitiative.org http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/wg-uma

Eve Maler | cell +1 425.345.6756 | Skype: xmlgrrl | Twitter: @xmlgrrl | Calendar: xmlgrrl@gmail.commailto:xmlgrrl@gmail.com

-- Adrian Gropper MD PROTECT YOUR FUTURE - RESTORE Health Privacy! HELP us fight for the right to control personal health data. DONATE: http://patientprivacyrights.org/donate-2/

In privacy it has always been a balancing, e.g.: “Revocation is not effective with respect to acts/omissions in reliance on the prior consent.“ But what does that mean in all these contexts, and how much variability must VRM and maybe UMA allow? Jon Neiditz Kilpatrick Townsend & Stockton LLP Suite 2800 | 1100 Peachtree Street NE | Atlanta, GA 30309-4528 office 404 815 6004 | cell 678-427-7809 | fax 770 234 6341 jneiditz@kilpatricktownsend.commailto:jneiditz@kilpatricktownsend.com | My Profilehttp://www.kilpatricktownsend.com/en/Who%20We%20Are/Professionals/N/NeiditzJ... | vCardhttp://www.kilpatricktownsend.com/_assets/vcards/professionals/NeiditzJonath... [cid:image005.png@01D10055.C231D180]https://www.linkedin.com/in/informationmanagementlaw [cid:image006.png@01D10055.C231D180] http://www.twitter.com/jonneiditz From: wg-uma-bounces@kantarainitiative.org [mailto:wg-uma-bounces@kantarainitiative.org] On Behalf Of Dazza Greenwood Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 4:35 PM To: Adrian Gropper Cc: WG UMA; ProjectVRM list Subject: Re: [WG-UMA] The Death of Safe Harbor is the Ultimate VRM and UMA Legal Opportunity Adrian - I agree that a move from general "prior consent to transaction authorization" is right on target. The current consent practices are way too general and cover way too much for way too long. I wonder though - is there not also a need for a transaction type to consent and authorize a more general case of data sharing? Such consent would still need to be revocable (or it is not really consent) and revocation may result in effectively quitting the network or other system. But if the consent were "transaction by transaction" in larger connected networks of systems (thinking of financial, educational, workplace, etc networks. also perhaps hospital chains?) would we not end up in a different bnd of non-stop consent management? Or am I missing something? (evidently I'm not permitted to post to VRM... feel free to repost this) _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | Dazza Greenwood, JD | CIVICS.com, Founder & Principal | MIT Media Lab, Visiting Scientist | Vmail: 617.500.3644 | Email: dazza@CIVICS.commailto:dazza@CIVICS.com | Biz: http://CIVICS.com | MIT: https://law.MIT.edu | Me: DazzaGreenwood.com | Twitter: @DazzaGreenwood | Google+: google.com/+DazzaGreenwoodhttp://google.com/+DazzaGreenwood | LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/DazzaGreenwoodhttp://linkedin.com/in/DazzaGreenwood | GitHub: github.com/DazzaGreenwood/Interfacehttp://github.com/DazzaGreenwood/Interface | Postal: P.O. Box 425845 Cambridge, MA 02142 | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 3:58 PM, Adrian Gropper mailto:agropper@healthurl.com> wrote: The whole concept of consent with regard to personal information (be it identified or de-identified) is problematic in a highly connected system with infinite memory. In this new world order (high connectivity and infinite storage), we need to shift from prior consent to transaction authorization. Consider what it means to grant prior consent to your genome. Your decision affects your ancestors and your descendants. The way that your genome will be interpreted a year from now is almost completely unknowable today and hence you cannot be informed of the consequences of that interpretation. The genome is not as extreme a case as it might seem. Any high-dimensional data about you and your family is subject to the same issues. We need to reconsider the cost/benefit of giving Facebook and Google and Surescripts and our favorite large research organization consent to any personal data aggregation whatsoever. UMA paves the path away from prior consent to transaction authorization. Adrian On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 3:45 PM, Thomas Hardjono mailto:hardjono@mit.edu> wrote: Hi Mark,

...

...

Personal control over my data is the best method of transferring data internationally with compliance and high levels of customer experience.

I'll throw in my thoughts: We need new economic model that incentives individual data-owners to "share" their personal data, where consent can be given & retracted. This is where UMA comes in. /thomas/ ________________________________________ From: wg-uma-bounces@kantarainitiative.orgmailto:wg-uma-bounces@kantarainitiative.org [wg-uma-bounces@kantarainitiative.orgmailto:wg-uma-bounces@kantarainitiative.org] on behalf of Eve Maler [eve@xmlgrrl.commailto:eve@xmlgrrl.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 3:24 PM To: Adrian Gropper Cc: WG UMA; ProjectVRM list Subject: Re: [WG-UMA] The Death of Safe Harbor is the Ultimate VRM and UMA Legal Opportunity Some “BLT continuum” observations about costs and benefits: To the extent that data is volatile and has a short “half-life”, data accessed gets more attractive to access by reference. (That’s why we tend to point to calendars rather than get snapshots of them.) Also, to the extent that data is resource-intensive or difficult to construct/collect/reconstruct oneself, it gets more attractive to access from a good “source of truth”. (A counterexample — I think — is that this is why if someone needs to know your blood type, they just test for it rather than going through the rigamarole of doing federated sign-in, data discovery, consented data access, blah blah blah.) A challenging counterexample about volatility is one’s genome. It’s really not very volatile, so once it’s out there…it’s really out there. This is where extracting a “purpose of use” agreement from the requesting party gets more and more attractive, and more enforceable agreements are more attractive than less enforceable ones. Eve On 6 Oct 2015, at 6:17 PM, Adrian Gropper mailto:agropper@healthurl.commailto:agropper@healthurl.com>> wrote: +1 Mark. UMA enables data to be accessed by reference instead of by value and reduces the need to copy it. With UMA, authorization servers become the primary point of aggregation (as well as notice for transparency) and the need for data brokers and deletion problems is reduced. UMA shifts the discussion to control and transparency of surveillance and aggregation, and it scales to serve personal, family, local, virtual community, national, and international "clouds". Adrian On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 11:18 AM, Mark Lizar mailto:mark@smartspecies.commailto:mark@smartspecies.com>> wrote: Very much agree Jon, Personal data control, what is achieved through ‘real' consent, is required for many things - among them is managing commercial relationships with vendors. But, VRM, in my opinion, would not be the only core driver for change. I still think compliance, combined with customer experience, is going to be the market driver. Personal data does not need to be destroyed if access to it only needs to be revoked, i.e. with UMA. I wrote a piece on this in 2011 for Identity Trust discussing how data protection industry is destroying privacy and undermining national security (not only the individual). The long and short version being, volunteered personal information is much more valuable to organisations. Personal control over my data is the best method of transferring data internationally with compliance and high levels of customer experience. - Mark On 6 Oct 2015, at 14:53, James Hazard mailto:james.g.hazard@gmail.commailto:james.g.hazard@gmail.com>> wrote: Do you mean that consent of the person permits transfer of data, but consent is necessarily revocable and data must be destroyed? On Oct 6, 2015 3:40 PM, "Neiditz, Jon" mailto:JNeiditz@kilpatricktownsend.commailto:JNeiditz@kilpatricktownsend.com>> wrote: Why? The Advocate General's opinion and the Court's decision both turn on the inability of Safe Harbor to prevent surveillance. NO permitted basis for data transfer prevents surveillance, not Model Clauses, not Binding Corporate Rules (BCRs). Logically, if probably not in immediate corporate and EU national practice, the only bulletproof basis for data transfer to the US is now the ever-so-revocable CONSENT, which presumes no fictitious protection from surveillance. See also: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/good-morning-safe-harbor-dead-what-does-mean-... Your thoughts? Jon Neiditz Kilpatrick Townsend & Stockton LLP Suite 2800 | 1100 Peachtree Street NE | Atlanta, GA 30309-4528 office 404 815 6004tel:404%20815%206004tel:404%20815%206004 | cell 678-427-7809tel:678-427-7809tel:678-427-7809> | fax 770 234 6341tel:770%20234%206341tel:770%20234%206341 jneiditz@kilpatricktownsend.commailto:jneiditz@kilpatricktownsend.commailto:jneiditz@kilpatricktownsend.com> | www.kilpatricktownsend.comhttp://www.kilpatricktownsend.comhttp://www.kilpatricktownsend.com/ ________________________________ Confidentiality Notice: This communication constitutes an electronic communication within the meaning of the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. Section 2510, and its disclosure is strictly limited to the recipient intended by the sender of this message. This transmission, and any attachments, may contain confidential attorney-client privileged information and attorney work product. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. Please contact us immediately by return e-mail or at 404 815 6500tel:404%20815%206500tel:404%20815%206500, and destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner. ________________________________ ***DISCLAIMER*** Per Treasury Department Circular 230: Any U.S. federal tax advice contained in this communication (including any attachments) is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed herein. _______________________________________________ WG-UMA mailing list WG-UMA@kantarainitiative.orgmailto:WG-UMA@kantarainitiative.orgmailto:WG-UMA@kantarainitiative.org> http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/wg-uma _______________________________________________ WG-UMA mailing list WG-UMA@kantarainitiative.orgmailto:WG-UMA@kantarainitiative.orgmailto:WG-UMA@kantarainitiative.org> http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/wg-uma _______________________________________________ WG-UMA mailing list WG-UMA@kantarainitiative.orgmailto:WG-UMA@kantarainitiative.orgmailto:WG-UMA@kantarainitiative.org> http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/wg-uma -- Adrian Gropper MD PROTECT YOUR FUTURE - RESTORE Health Privacy! HELP us fight for the right to control personal health data. DONATE: http://patientprivacyrights.org/donate-2/ _______________________________________________ WG-UMA mailing list WG-UMA@kantarainitiative.orgmailto:WG-UMA@kantarainitiative.orgmailto:WG-UMA@kantarainitiative.org> http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/wg-uma Eve Maler | cell +1 425.345.6756tel:%2B1%20425.345.6756 | Skype: xmlgrrl | Twitter: @xmlgrrl | Calendar: xmlgrrl@gmail.commailto:xmlgrrl@gmail.commailto:xmlgrrl@gmail.com> -- Adrian Gropper MD PROTECT YOUR FUTURE - RESTORE Health Privacy! HELP us fight for the right to control personal health data. DONATE: http://patientprivacyrights.org/donate-2/ _______________________________________________ WG-UMA mailing list WG-UMA@kantarainitiative.orgmailto:WG-UMA@kantarainitiative.org http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/wg-uma

+1 to Thomas' call for new economic models that appropriately incentivize good behavior for individually controlled consent management for personal data sharing. Economic models necessarily align behaviors with rewards, costs and/or risks that are quantifiable as money, otherwise they are not really economic. Rewards, costs and risks for the role of "individual data owners" have corollaries with each other role involved. Although a $5 incentive for party A may not be a direct $5 cost for party B, nonetheless, economic incentives have major interdependencies among all parties involved. To that point, I share for comment a rough draft book chapter on use of trust marks to manage aspects of personal data sharing and the flow of big data: https://github.com/CIVICS/Resources/wiki/Big-Data-and-Personal-Data-Trust-Ne... The focus is on re-identification risks but the rubric applies more generally. The piece describes some modular parts of a "Trust Network" approach to enable fair value exchange for sharing personal data and big data flows that are both effective and responsible. Perhaps systems of Trust Networks can replace the ill-fated Safe Harbor program by focusing on minimum set of common business practices, legal rules and technical capabilities that are measurable, reliable and relevant to user consent for sharing of personal data. _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ | Dazza Greenwood, JD | CIVICS.com, Founder & Principal | MIT Media Lab, Visiting Scientist | Vmail: 617.500.3644 | Email: dazza@CIVICS.com | Biz: http://CIVICS.com | MIT: https://law.MIT.edu | Me: DazzaGreenwood.com | Twitter: @DazzaGreenwood | Google+: google.com/+DazzaGreenwood | LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/DazzaGreenwood | GitHub: github.com/DazzaGreenwood/Interface | Postal: P.O. Box 425845 Cambridge, MA 02142 | _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 3:45 PM, Thomas Hardjono wrote:

Hi Mark,

...

...

...

Personal control over my data is the best method of transferring data internationally with compliance and high levels of customer experience.

I'll throw in my thoughts: We need new economic model that incentives individual data-owners to "share" their personal data, where consent can be given & retracted.

This is where UMA comes in.

/thomas/

________________________________________ From: wg-uma-bounces@kantarainitiative.org [ wg-uma-bounces@kantarainitiative.org] on behalf of Eve Maler [ eve@xmlgrrl.com] Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2015 3:24 PM To: Adrian Gropper Cc: WG UMA; ProjectVRM list Subject: Re: [WG-UMA] The Death of Safe Harbor is the Ultimate VRM and UMA Legal Opportunity

Some “BLT continuum” observations about costs and benefits:

To the extent that data is volatile and has a short “half-life”, data accessed gets more attractive to access by reference. (That’s why we tend to point to calendars rather than get snapshots of them.) Also, to the extent that data is resource-intensive or difficult to construct/collect/reconstruct oneself, it gets more attractive to access from a good “source of truth”. (A counterexample — I think — is that this is why if someone needs to know your blood type, they just test for it rather than going through the rigamarole of doing federated sign-in, data discovery, consented data access, blah blah blah.)

A challenging counterexample about volatility is one’s genome. It’s really not very volatile, so once it’s out there…it’s really out there. This is where extracting a “purpose of use” agreement from the requesting party gets more and more attractive, and more enforceable agreements are more attractive than less enforceable ones.

Eve

On 6 Oct 2015, at 6:17 PM, Adrian Gropper > wrote:

+1 Mark. UMA enables data to be accessed by reference instead of by value and reduces the need to copy it. With UMA, authorization servers become the primary point of aggregation (as well as notice for transparency) and the need for data brokers and deletion problems is reduced.

UMA shifts the discussion to control and transparency of surveillance and aggregation, and it scales to serve personal, family, local, virtual community, national, and international "clouds".

Adrian

On Tue, Oct 6, 2015 at 11:18 AM, Mark Lizar > wrote: Very much agree Jon,

Personal data control, what is achieved through ‘real' consent, is required for many things - among them is managing commercial relationships with vendors. But, VRM, in my opinion, would not be the only core driver for change. I still think compliance, combined with customer experience, is going to be the market driver.

Personal data does not need to be destroyed if access to it only needs to be revoked, i.e. with UMA. I wrote a piece on this in 2011 for Identity Trust discussing how data protection industry is destroying privacy and undermining national security (not only the individual). The long and short version being, volunteered personal information is much more valuable to organisations. Personal control over my data is the best method of transferring data internationally with compliance and high levels of customer experience.

- Mark

On 6 Oct 2015, at 14:53, James Hazard > wrote:

Do you mean that consent of the person permits transfer of data, but consent is necessarily revocable and data must be destroyed?

On Oct 6, 2015 3:40 PM, "Neiditz, Jon" mailto:JNeiditz@kilpatricktownsend.com> wrote: Why?

The Advocate General's opinion and the Court's decision both turn on the inability of Safe Harbor to prevent surveillance. NO permitted basis for data transfer prevents surveillance, not Model Clauses, not Binding Corporate Rules (BCRs). Logically, if probably not in immediate corporate and EU national practice, the only bulletproof basis for data transfer to the US is now the ever-so-revocable CONSENT, which presumes no fictitious protection from surveillance.

See also: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/good-morning-safe-harbor-dead-what-does-mean-...

Your thoughts?

Jon Neiditz Kilpatrick Townsend & Stockton LLP Suite 2800 | 1100 Peachtree Street NE | Atlanta, GA 30309-4528 office 404 815 6004tel:404%20815%206004 | cell 678-427-7809 | fax 770 234 6341tel:770%20234%206341 jneiditz@kilpatricktownsend.commailto:jneiditz@kilpatricktownsend.com | www.kilpatricktownsend.comhttp://www.kilpatricktownsend.com/

________________________________

Confidentiality Notice: This communication constitutes an electronic communication within the meaning of the Electronic Communications Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. Section 2510, and its disclosure is strictly limited to the recipient intended by the sender of this message. This transmission, and any attachments, may contain confidential attorney-client privileged information and attorney work product. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is STRICTLY PROHIBITED. Please contact us immediately by return e-mail or at 404 815 6500tel:404%20815%206500, and destroy the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving in any manner.

________________________________

***DISCLAIMER*** Per Treasury Department Circular 230: Any U.S. federal tax advice contained in this communication (including any attachments) is not intended or written to be used, and cannot be used, for the purpose of (i) avoiding penalties under the Internal Revenue Code or (ii) promoting, marketing or recommending to another party any transaction or matter addressed herein. _______________________________________________ WG-UMA mailing list WG-UMA@kantarainitiative.orgmailto:WG-UMA@kantarainitiative.org http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/wg-uma _______________________________________________ WG-UMA mailing list WG-UMA@kantarainitiative.orgmailto:WG-UMA@kantarainitiative.org http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/wg-uma

_______________________________________________ WG-UMA mailing list WG-UMA@kantarainitiative.orgmailto:WG-UMA@kantarainitiative.org http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/wg-uma

--

Adrian Gropper MD

PROTECT YOUR FUTURE - RESTORE Health Privacy! HELP us fight for the right to control personal health data. DONATE: http://patientprivacyrights.org/donate-2/ _______________________________________________ WG-UMA mailing list WG-UMA@kantarainitiative.orgmailto:WG-UMA@kantarainitiative.org http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/wg-uma

Eve Maler | cell +1 425.345.6756 | Skype: xmlgrrl | Twitter: @xmlgrrl | Calendar: xmlgrrl@gmail.commailto:xmlgrrl@gmail.com _______________________________________________ WG-UMA mailing list WG-UMA@kantarainitiative.org http://kantarainitiative.org/mailman/listinfo/wg-uma