Fwd: FOR REVIEW: updated paper

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Salvatore D'Agostino

5 Apr 2024 5 Apr '24

11:01 a.m.

Cleaned up further Get Outlook for iOShttps://aka.ms/o0ukef ________________________________ From: MarkL Sent: Friday, April 5, 2024 9:58:18 AM To: Tim Loyd Cc: timothy Reiniger ; Sharon Polsky ; Kate Tilleczek ; Paul Knowles ; Salvatore D'Agostino Subject: Fwd: FOR REVIEW: updated paper FYI - the polished version, Begin forwarded message: From: Tara Sinclair Subject: FOR REVIEW: updated paper Date: 5 April 2024 at 13:15:29 BST To: Mark Lizar , MarkL Incorporating your latest changes

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Andrew Hughes

6 Apr 6 Apr

4:55 p.m.

I'm sorry Sal - but I have a very hard time understanding what the document tries to describe or what the ask is. If it is to inform the ISO committee of work going on outside of ISO, then it does a confusing and poor job. There are a whole bunch of claims that "the scheme" or "the TPI" or some other things actively "do" things - no mention of WHO or WHAT takes action - it's all super-vague and seems to paint a wishful-thinking world. In it's current state I do not support sending this document outside of Kantara. ———————— *Andrew Hughes *CISM m +1 250.888.9474 AndrewHughes3000@gmail.com On Fri, Apr 5, 2024 at 7:01 AM Salvatore D'Agostino wrote:

...

Cleaned up further

Get Outlook for iOS https://aka.ms/o0ukef ------------------------------ *From:* MarkL *Sent:* Friday, April 5, 2024 9:58:18 AM *To:* Tim Loyd *Cc:* timothy Reiniger ; Sharon Polsky < Sharon.polsky@aminacorp.ca>; Kate Tilleczek ; Paul Knowles ; Salvatore D'Agostino < sal@idmachines.com> *Subject:* Fwd: FOR REVIEW: updated paper

FYI - the polished version,

Begin forwarded message:

*From: *Tara Sinclair *Subject: **FOR REVIEW: updated paper* *Date: *5 April 2024 at 13:15:29 BST *To: *Mark Lizar , MarkL

Incorporating your latest changes

_______________________________________________ A Community Group mailing list of KantaraInitiative.org LC mailing list -- lc@kantarainitiative.org To unsubscribe send an email to staff@kantarainitiative.org List archives -- https://mailman.kantarainitiative.org/hyperkitty/list/lc@kantarainitiative.o... ______ Group wiki -- https://kantara.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/LC

Mark Lizar

9:10 p.m.

New subject: FOR REVIEW: updated paper

Hi Andrew, The TPS scheme is directed at Regulators and in this contribution is pecific contributed towards 27566-2, where we are working to iterate this towards and ISO benchmarking program. There is a lot to do, and of course more resources are required.. But in the end, this scheme and the technology to implemented are for the Privacy Regulatory or Data Privacy Authority, who are interested in the scheme as a transparency auditing tool set. As the ANCR Work is reg-tech rather than identity technology. Which has always been a struggle to communicate, especially to those who are unaware of who the target audience is, Yesterday I asked for your input on this asking you in your role for recommendations or comments. Do you have any advice or recommendations? As LC Chair, and ISO Liaison, your positive support is not only requested in your role it should be required. Especially if you are going to block it. Perhaps this is something that should be raised to the Board? Best, Mark On 6 Apr 2024, at 20:55, Andrew Hughes wrote: I'm sorry Sal - but I have a very hard time understanding what the document tries to describe or what the ask is. If it is to inform the ISO committee of work going on outside of ISO, then it does a confusing and poor job. There are a whole bunch of claims that "the scheme" or "the TPI" or some other things actively "do" things - no mention of WHO or WHAT takes action - it's all super-vague and seems to paint a wishful-thinking world. In it's current state I do not support sending this document outside of Kantara. ———————— Andrew Hughes CISM m +1 250.888.9474 AndrewHughes3000@gmail.commailto:AndrewHughes3000@gmail.com On Fri, Apr 5, 2024 at 7:01 AM Salvatore D'Agostino mailto:sal@idmachines.com> wrote: Cleaned up further Get Outlook for iOShttps://aka.ms/o0ukef ________________________________ From: MarkL mailto:mark@0pn.org> Sent: Friday, April 5, 2024 9:58:18 AM To: Tim Loyd mailto:timl@transparencylab.ca> Cc: timothy Reiniger mailto:tsreiniger@gmail.com>; Sharon Polsky mailto:Sharon.polsky@aminacorp.ca>; Kate Tilleczek mailto:katetill@edu.yorku.ca>; Paul Knowles ; Salvatore D'Agostino mailto:sal@idmachines.com> Subject: Fwd: FOR REVIEW: updated paper FYI - the polished version, Begin forwarded message: From: Tara Sinclair mailto:tara.sinclair@reddialcomms.co.uk> Subject: FOR REVIEW: updated paper Date: 5 April 2024 at 13:15:29 BST To: Mark Lizar mailto:mark@transparencylab.ca>, MarkL mailto:mark@0pn.org> Incorporating your latest changes _______________________________________________ A Community Group mailing list of KantaraInitiative.org LC mailing list -- lc@kantarainitiative.orgmailto:lc@kantarainitiative.org To unsubscribe send an email to staff@kantarainitiative.orgmailto:staff@kantarainitiative.org List archives -- https://mailman.kantarainitiative.org/hyperkitty/list/lc@kantarainitiative.o... ______ Group wiki -- https://kantara.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/LC _______________________________________________ A Community Group mailing list of KantaraInitiative.org LC mailing list -- lc@kantarainitiative.org To unsubscribe send an email to staff@kantarainitiative.org List archives -- https://mailman.kantarainitiative.org/hyperkitty/list/lc@kantarainitiative.o... ______ Group wiki -- https://kantara.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/LC Mark Lizar Executive Director 0PN; Digital Transparency Lab (Digital iDentity, Transparency, Trust & Consent Engineering) * Toronto +1 -289 - 501 -3597 * London +44 208 -123 2476

Andrew Hughes

9:13 p.m.

New subject: FOR REVIEW: updated paper

I’m not going to block it mark - but be aware that it is very confusing and might not be appropriate for sc27/wg5. But you will get the feedback from the national experts that you seek. It is shoddily written and unclear. And if you say it’s not for “identity” then why do you cite 800-63? You are very inconsistent. Andrew Hughes CISM m +1 250.888.9474 AndrewHughes3000@gmail.com https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrew-hughes-682058a On Sat, Apr 6, 2024 at 8:09 PM Mark Lizar wrote:

...

Hi Andrew,

The TPS scheme is directed at Regulators and in this contribution is pecific contributed towards 27566-2, where we are working to iterate this towards and ISO benchmarking program. There is a lot to do, and of course more resources are required..

But in the end, this scheme and the technology to implemented are for the Privacy Regulatory or Data Privacy Authority, who are interested in the scheme as a transparency auditing tool set. As the ANCR Work is reg-tech rather than identity technology. Which has always been a struggle to communicate, especially to those who are unaware of who the target audience is,

Yesterday I asked for your input on this asking you in your role for recommendations or comments. Do you have any advice or recommendations? As LC Chair, and ISO Liaison, your positive support is not only requested in your role it should be required. Especially if you are going to block it. Perhaps this is something that should be raised to the Board?

Best,

Mark

On 6 Apr 2024, at 20:55, Andrew Hughes wrote:

I'm sorry Sal - but I have a very hard time understanding what the document tries to describe or what the ask is. If it is to inform the ISO committee of work going on outside of ISO, then it does a confusing and poor job. There are a whole bunch of claims that "the scheme" or "the TPI" or some other things actively "do" things - no mention of WHO or WHAT takes action - it's all super-vague and seems to paint a wishful-thinking world.

In it's current state I do not support sending this document outside of Kantara. ———————— *Andrew Hughes *CISM m +1 250.888.9474 AndrewHughes3000@gmail.com

On Fri, Apr 5, 2024 at 7:01 AM Salvatore D'Agostino wrote:

...
Cleaned up further

Get Outlook for iOS https://aka.ms/o0ukef ------------------------------ *From:* MarkL *Sent:* Friday, April 5, 2024 9:58:18 AM *To:* Tim Loyd *Cc:* timothy Reiniger ; Sharon Polsky < Sharon.polsky@aminacorp.ca>; Kate Tilleczek ; Paul Knowles ; Salvatore D'Agostino < sal@idmachines.com> *Subject:* Fwd: FOR REVIEW: updated paper

FYI - the polished version,

Begin forwarded message:

*From: *Tara Sinclair *Subject: **FOR REVIEW: updated paper* *Date: *5 April 2024 at 13:15:29 BST *To: *Mark Lizar , MarkL

Incorporating your latest changes

_______________________________________________ A Community Group mailing list of KantaraInitiative.org LC mailing list -- lc@kantarainitiative.org To unsubscribe send an email to staff@kantarainitiative.org List archives -- https://mailman.kantarainitiative.org/hyperkitty/list/lc@kantarainitiative.o... ______ Group wiki -- https://kantara.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/LC

_______________________________________________

A Community Group mailing list of KantaraInitiative.org LC mailing list -- lc@kantarainitiative.org To unsubscribe send an email to staff@kantarainitiative.org List archives -- https://mailman.kantarainitiative.org/hyperkitty/list/lc@kantarainitiative.o... ______ Group wiki -- https://kantara.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/LC

Mark Lizar Executive Director 0PN; Digital Transparency Lab (Digital iDentity, Transparency, Trust & Consent Engineering) * Toronto +1 -289 - 501 -3597 * London +44 208 -123 2476

Mark Lizar

9:23 p.m.

New subject: FOR REVIEW: updated paper

That is helpful feedback, and the claims, now that you mention it are misplaced in the format of the report. If you have any suggestions on how to rectify - then a positive way forward would be welcome. Best, Mark On 6 Apr 2024, at 20:55, Andrew Hughes wrote: I'm sorry Sal - but I have a very hard time understanding what the document tries to describe or what the ask is. If it is to inform the ISO committee of work going on outside of ISO, then it does a confusing and poor job. There are a whole bunch of claims that "the scheme" or "the TPI" or some other things actively "do" things - no mention of WHO or WHAT takes action - it's all super-vague and seems to paint a wishful-thinking world. In it's current state I do not support sending this document outside of Kantara. ———————— Andrew Hughes CISM m +1 250.888.9474 AndrewHughes3000@gmail.commailto:AndrewHughes3000@gmail.com On Fri, Apr 5, 2024 at 7:01 AM Salvatore D'Agostino mailto:sal@idmachines.com> wrote: Cleaned up further Get Outlook for iOShttps://aka.ms/o0ukef ________________________________ From: MarkL mailto:mark@0pn.org> Sent: Friday, April 5, 2024 9:58:18 AM To: Tim Loyd mailto:timl@transparencylab.ca> Cc: timothy Reiniger mailto:tsreiniger@gmail.com>; Sharon Polsky mailto:Sharon.polsky@aminacorp.ca>; Kate Tilleczek mailto:katetill@edu.yorku.ca>; Paul Knowles ; Salvatore D'Agostino mailto:sal@idmachines.com> Subject: Fwd: FOR REVIEW: updated paper FYI - the polished version, Begin forwarded message: From: Tara Sinclair mailto:tara.sinclair@reddialcomms.co.uk> Subject: FOR REVIEW: updated paper Date: 5 April 2024 at 13:15:29 BST To: Mark Lizar mailto:mark@transparencylab.ca>, MarkL mailto:mark@0pn.org> Incorporating your latest changes _______________________________________________ A Community Group mailing list of KantaraInitiative.org LC mailing list -- lc@kantarainitiative.orgmailto:lc@kantarainitiative.org To unsubscribe send an email to staff@kantarainitiative.orgmailto:staff@kantarainitiative.org List archives -- https://mailman.kantarainitiative.org/hyperkitty/list/lc@kantarainitiative.o... ______ Group wiki -- https://kantara.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/LC _______________________________________________ A Community Group mailing list of KantaraInitiative.org LC mailing list -- lc@kantarainitiative.org To unsubscribe send an email to staff@kantarainitiative.org List archives -- https://mailman.kantarainitiative.org/hyperkitty/list/lc@kantarainitiative.o... ______ Group wiki -- https://kantara.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/LC Mark Lizar Executive Director 0PN; Digital Transparency Lab (Digital iDentity, Transparency, Trust & Consent Engineering) * Toronto +1 -289 - 501 -3597 * London +44 208 -123 2476

Andrew Hughes

9:29 p.m.

New subject: FOR REVIEW: updated paper

I’m on the plane to Manchester right now. I don’t have time to help you. Didn’t anyone proofread it? If I could understand what the proposal actually is, I’d be happy to support it - even if I disagreed with it. But I will tell you again - I cannot understand what the thing you are describing actually is. By the way - Consent Receipt would not have become ISO 27560 if I and others had not persisted for several years against experts in WG5 who were intent on changing it completely. I cannot support and promote something that I cannot understand. And I have been trying to understand it for a long time. Andrew Hughes CISM m +1 250.888.9474 AndrewHughes3000@gmail.com https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrew-hughes-682058a On Sat, Apr 6, 2024 at 8:23 PM Mark Lizar wrote:

...

That is helpful feedback, and the claims, now that you mention it are misplaced in the format of the report. If you have any suggestions on how to rectify - then a positive way forward would be welcome.

Best,

Mark

On 6 Apr 2024, at 20:55, Andrew Hughes wrote:

I'm sorry Sal - but I have a very hard time understanding what the document tries to describe or what the ask is. If it is to inform the ISO committee of work going on outside of ISO, then it does a confusing and poor job. There are a whole bunch of claims that "the scheme" or "the TPI" or some other things actively "do" things - no mention of WHO or WHAT takes action - it's all super-vague and seems to paint a wishful-thinking world.

In it's current state I do not support sending this document outside of Kantara. ———————— *Andrew Hughes *CISM m +1 250.888.9474 AndrewHughes3000@gmail.com

On Fri, Apr 5, 2024 at 7:01 AM Salvatore D'Agostino wrote:

...
Cleaned up further

Get Outlook for iOS https://aka.ms/o0ukef ------------------------------ *From:* MarkL *Sent:* Friday, April 5, 2024 9:58:18 AM *To:* Tim Loyd *Cc:* timothy Reiniger ; Sharon Polsky < Sharon.polsky@aminacorp.ca>; Kate Tilleczek ; Paul Knowles ; Salvatore D'Agostino < sal@idmachines.com> *Subject:* Fwd: FOR REVIEW: updated paper

FYI - the polished version,

Begin forwarded message:

*From: *Tara Sinclair *Subject: **FOR REVIEW: updated paper* *Date: *5 April 2024 at 13:15:29 BST *To: *Mark Lizar , MarkL

Incorporating your latest changes

_______________________________________________ A Community Group mailing list of KantaraInitiative.org LC mailing list -- lc@kantarainitiative.org To unsubscribe send an email to staff@kantarainitiative.org List archives -- https://mailman.kantarainitiative.org/hyperkitty/list/lc@kantarainitiative.o... ______ Group wiki -- https://kantara.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/LC

_______________________________________________

A Community Group mailing list of KantaraInitiative.org LC mailing list -- lc@kantarainitiative.org To unsubscribe send an email to staff@kantarainitiative.org List archives -- https://mailman.kantarainitiative.org/hyperkitty/list/lc@kantarainitiative.o... ______ Group wiki -- https://kantara.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/LC

Mark Lizar Executive Director 0PN; Digital Transparency Lab (Digital iDentity, Transparency, Trust & Consent Engineering) * Toronto +1 -289 - 501 -3597 * London +44 208 -123 2476

Salvatore D'Agostino

10:24 p.m.

Thanks Andrew. I will work with this feedback. I am also flying tomorrow so will see what I can do from the road an coordinate with Mark. From: Andrew Hughes Sent: Saturday, April 6, 2024 3:56 PM To: Salvatore D'Agostino Cc: Kantara Leadership Council ; Peter Davis ; Karyn Bright Subject: Re: [KI-LC] Fwd: FOR REVIEW: updated paper I'm sorry Sal - but I have a very hard time understanding what the document tries to describe or what the ask is. If it is to inform the ISO committee of work going on outside of ISO, then it does a confusing and poor job. There are a whole bunch of claims that "the scheme" or "the TPI" or some other things actively "do" things - no mention of WHO or WHAT takes action - it's all super-vague and seems to paint a wishful-thinking world. In it's current state I do not support sending this document outside of Kantara. ———————— Andrew Hughes CISM m +1 250.888.9474 mailto:AndrewHughes3000@gmail.com AndrewHughes3000@gmail.com On Fri, Apr 5, 2024 at 7:01 AM Salvatore D'Agostino mailto:sal@idmachines.com > wrote: Cleaned up further Get Outlook for iOS https://aka.ms/o0ukef _____ From: MarkL mailto:mark@0pn.org > Sent: Friday, April 5, 2024 9:58:18 AM To: Tim Loyd mailto:timl@transparencylab.ca > Cc: timothy Reiniger mailto:tsreiniger@gmail.com >; Sharon Polsky mailto:Sharon.polsky@aminacorp.ca >; Kate Tilleczek mailto:katetill@edu.yorku.ca >; Paul Knowles mailto:paul.knowles@meddea.global >; Salvatore D'Agostino mailto:sal@idmachines.com > Subject: Fwd: FOR REVIEW: updated paper FYI - the polished version, Begin forwarded message: From: Tara Sinclair mailto:tara.sinclair@reddialcomms.co.uk > Subject: FOR REVIEW: updated paper Date: 5 April 2024 at 13:15:29 BST To: Mark Lizar mailto:mark@transparencylab.ca >, MarkL mailto:mark@0pn.org > Incorporating your latest changes _______________________________________________ A Community Group mailing list of KantaraInitiative.org LC mailing list -- lc@kantarainitiative.org mailto:lc@kantarainitiative.org To unsubscribe send an email to staff@kantarainitiative.org mailto:staff@kantarainitiative.org List archives -- https://mailman.kantarainitiative.org/hyperkitty/list/lc@kantarainitiative.o... ______ Group wiki -- https://kantara.atlassian.net/wiki/spaces/LC

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Andrew Hughes
Mark Lizar
Salvatore D'Agostino